Daemona
Members
994
Feb. 2003
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I have started a ratings thread for Valek on the rant and rave section of this site (yes he's even approached me!
Whenever someone in There treats you like garbage you can come here and rate them. The more users that come here the more effective it will be as a means to warn others. You do not have to post under their thread to rate them either. Rating is anonymous to site visitors.
I'd also like some user feedback on an idea I am considering. I've been considering it for several days now.
What do you all think about me creating a Hall of Shame page? I would require ppl to send me chat logs of the offenders own words, then post quotes of what these offenders actually said.
There writes chat logs in everyone's there client file for every IM, chat convo, or fun zone chat box that pops up on your screen. Perhaps if we shine a light on these guys and show them for the pigs they are they might think twice before messing with more unsuspecting female avies. Feel free to comment on this idea as I have not decided one way or the other to do it or not. I am still weighing pros and cons at this moment. Sin like you mean it!
"I love the life but I never sold my soul" {Kid Rock}
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/mafioso/pics.html
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Spliff
Admin
843
Jan. 2003
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Although it might seem like you are getting them back, going as far as creating a hall of shame page may be giving these idiots all the fame they ever could have wanted.
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Techzen
Members
281
Feb. 2003
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I have to agree with Spliff about the Hall of Shame. 
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Sunni
Members
12
April 2003
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I agree with the 2 fellas above...fame even if its infamy might be considered an incentive to some of these people to keep up the bad behavior and in fact might increase it.
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CrystalShard
Members
380
Feb. 2003
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Another problem: People can post fabricated logs of other people they want to 'take revenge" at, or in other case - work a "spin" on what someone else said, and with abit of text editing make that person Hall of Shame "worthy". These kind of features tend to attract these kinds of behaviors. It may be best to just stick with the current "Rant and/or rave" section in TU.
And btw, going abit off-topic, but Valek didnt "approach" me yet. I'm almost feeling "left out" here 
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Trisha
Members
177
Mar. 2003
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Daemona,
I have to agree with the above comments about the hall of shame. They will get the attention they are trying to get even if it is bad attention it is attention for them. Also as Crystal says the chat logs are just text files and easily manipulated.
Believe me I would love to get back at some of these guys and help prevent them abusing someone else but I am not sure that is the best way.
I do agree that something HAS to be done though asking me if i know how to use the ignore function is NOT an acceptable response by there staff (it is the one I get all the time however). I don't want to get into that to much here as I am still pondering my response to Digital's thread and will post my feelings there.
Trisha 
Oh and I have had the pleasure  of Valek's attention. Trisha,
trisha278.blogs.com
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Squeaker
Members
192
Feb. 2003
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A hall of shame will have a bad effect.
Some players decided to make a hall of shame for macroing players in Asheron's Call and I watching my boyfriend spend a good month *trying* to get on that list.
While the motivation is good, there is that serious flaw in the idea. "The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skills, to be perused by any invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing, Potter - or at least, most minds are."
-Severus Snape
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punchthemonkey
Members
5
April 2003
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I dunno... Just to add my two cents, I don't think the "Hall of Shame" idea is such a bad one.
While there would be the problem of people seeking negative attention and trying to "work their way on to the list", it also provides a second effect that I don't think is being considered.
If it were set up more as a "warning" or public service for new & existing users who have no desire to be harassed, it could work.
By listing what the person has done, it could serve as a waring that this is probably someone that decent people really don't want to have anything to do with. If enough people heed the warning, the griefer would run out of people to harass, aside from others on the list...
Which is fine with me. An army of stickmen who have no one left to harass but themselves doesn't seem to be such a bad thing.
I have no problem with the fact that certain individuals try to initiate adult conversations with other avatars. What does bother me, however, is not only the degradation and objectification that said offenders seem to express toward females, but also the dismissal of any answer they recieve other than "yes".
For years now we've had "No means no" driven into our personal codes of ethics. Just because There is a "virtual" community does not negate this idea.
I have also been reading the many threads on this issue tonight, and I am absolutely appalled that There's response, for the most part, has been "Use Ignore".
Sorry, but if a person is harrassed IRL and is told by the person in charge, "Just ignore it", there is a failure in the authority structure and it opens up the authority to all sorts of issues. By using the "Ignore them" ideology, There is not only re-enforcing the negative behavior exhibited by the offender (because, Hey! If the only consequence is that our victim will ignore us, we'll move on to our next victim!), but they also send a message to the victim of the harassment that they're making too big of a deal out of it and that it obviously is not worth the time of There to handle the matter.
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sluggo
Members
139
Feb. 2003
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Well said.
Not necessarily trying to defend There, they absolutely must establish guidelines and policies to with this sort of situation.
It's possible here that offenders and repeat offenders are not being adequately tracked, or the staff is not trained in how to deal with such issues. I have a feeling that is changing as we speak. They pretty quickly responded to that thread on the general forums, in the midst of several of us (including me) being rather harsh.
I'll extend some credit to nicole for realising the importance of and escalating the issue.
I'm really torn with 'halls of shame', revenge is a terrible reason for taking an action, mind you inaction on the part of There, Inc. leaves people feeling like they have little choice.
Not sure what the answer is on that issue.
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CrystalShard
Members
380
Feb. 2003
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The answer would be to get There's abuse department to start doing what they're paid to do. Its their job to do it, after all.
Fortunatly we do not have to pay them yet, but things -are- supposed to change in the near future. And if they want to see revenues coming from us, i'd like to see that they can do what they promise to the deliver in the first place.
The program may be beta, but the people in the abuse department are definetly NOT.
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Karey
Members
35
Jan. 2003
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"Fortunatly we do not have to pay them yet"
Speak for yourself, I bought a bunch of THEREbucks the night before I was driven out. That was a good investment. 
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CrystalShard
Members
380
Feb. 2003
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Still, I'd expect them to help anyone who have not payed just as well as anyone who did pay. Saying "we're beta" isnt going to excuse them from not doing anything useful. (not saying that they DID say "we're beta", but you get my idea I hope)
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Squeaker
Members
192
Feb. 2003
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| Quote (CrystalShard @ April 23 2003,8:11) | And if they want to see revenues coming from us, i'd like to see that they can do what they promise to the deliver in the first place.
The program may be beta, but the people in the abuse department are definetly NOT. |
Well I feel that if they were willing to actually *work* on fixing this I would feel better about the situation. Regretably as it stands now I do not feel that they are doing anything more than a slight pat on the head after enough vocal players make their feelings known. Kind of like "here is something to keep you quiet for the time being but we really aren't going to do anything". Maybe I am jaded but it is how I currently feel.......
Karey made the first stink and they gave us a policy that they haven't been following. Digital is making another stink 2 1/2 months later so they are giving us a new e-mail address to report abusive behavior in game...........are they going to actually do something more substantual this time? "The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skills, to be perused by any invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing, Potter - or at least, most minds are."
-Severus Snape
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KittenKat
Members
266
Mar. 2003
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| Quote (CrystalShard @ April 22 2003,2:23) | | And btw, going abit off-topic, but Valek didnt "approach" me yet. I'm almost feeling "left out" here |
Interestingly enough, he approached me the other day... I has hanging around the trees behind karuna plaza, testing out a design I was working on, and he asked me if I was hiding... I told him that I kinda was, and that I was testing some designs, and he said something to the effect of "ok, sorry to bother you" and moved on. I was shocked, having read about him with regard to these issues.
Any possibility he's been whipped into shape? This is the first time to my knowledge that I've ever run into him. KittenKat >^..^<
CEO of OY!
http://fergusonv.com/there
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J Crew
Members
17
April 2003
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| Quote (punchthemonkey @ April 23 2003,3:20) | If it were set up more as a "warning" or public service for new & existing users who have no desire to be harassed, it could work.
By listing what the person has done, it could serve as a waring that this is probably someone that decent people really don't want to have anything to do with. If enough people heed the warning, the griefer would run out of people to harass, aside from others on the list... |
Since the general agreement is that "Ignore" isn't enough, and we know that most of these harassers aren't concerned with (in fact, may welcome) any negative reputation they earn for their actions, I'm not sure how this warning or public service will help anyone. Are these harassers befriending people, acquiring their trust, and then unleasing their harassment upon the victim or are they outright harassing to begin with?
If more the latter than the former, such a list would do nothing for those who would want to prevent being victimized themselves.
In almost every other online environment I've been in, there was a strict guideline that harassment of any form was prohibited and repeat offenses would lead to termination of service. I suspect There will also implement such policies soon, especially once their lawyers start going over everything with a fine-toothed comb.
Granted, a There representative would have to have evidence that such a harassment took place before taking action, and what qualifies as a harassment will have to be well-defined. After all, we don't want people getting kicked out of the game for asking a queston that could be fairly casual and harmless to one, but offensive to another.
Good thoughts all around though - hopefully There is listening. J Crew
Station Owner
WOTR - Way Out There Radio
http://www.WayOutThere.net
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digital_signal_X
Members
348
April 2003
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Some sort of user based response is going to be required if There™ ignores this "new" training of enforcement that ncraine spoke of. Be it a hall of shame, a hit list, a walk-out or mass auction removal, etc. However, don't jump the gun prematurely. Write your emails about Valek to abuse@ and include any other evidence you have. See if it works. I'd honestly never even heard of this guy in-client till a conversation with phedre this am, and seeing this thread on TU.
Give there one more chance, and see if they truly have come to terms with this problem. 
(Click picture for Club links and Galleries! )
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Techzen
Members
281
Feb. 2003
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digital_signal_X
Agreed. I hope There comes through. I don't want this to get nasty. But sometimes you have to fight for what you believe is right. I have a lock on target,I am in hover-mode awaiting your signal to strike. Operation Freedom from Harassment to commence on your command.
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Rayce
Members
789
Feb. 2003
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I've noticed that people with a lot of "ignores" against them put their profile on private so that we cant see how much people hate them. I've noticed Translucent do this and he supposedly has way over 20 ignores but now we cant be sure because his profile is private. ...just call me Number 2
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digital_signal_X
Members
348
April 2003
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techzen LOL... noooo I'll sit and watch this one : )  Lead the way man, or perhaps put Dae in charge, she can drill seargant us grunts.
(Click picture for Club links and Galleries! )
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Techzen
Members
281
Feb. 2003
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digital_signal_X
I meant in reference to waiting to see what There does. I figured you have the inside scoop to what is happening with your "Open letter" post. If we don't get a public answer to what is happening I figured There may respond privately to those directly impacted by this first. Any action I take is just in support of the victims of this. I will wait for their word or your word before I take any actions beyond posting.
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Tansy
Members
285
April 2003
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First, Translucent has 23 ignores
Second, I got the shock of my life with a reply to a Call for Help that I'd emailed to There. I'd been at an event and been harrassed severely, along with another female avatar. So, I sent the details to There, asking for something to be done about the avatar in question.
There reply was that the avatar had been banned from the game for some time. They'd investigated and done something about it.
Wow!
A shocked Tansy
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CrystalShard
Members
380
Feb. 2003
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... so now if I choose to conceal my profile, it would mean that i'm a bad, bad person.
For some reason it worries me. 
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sluggo
Members
139
Feb. 2003
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Naw, if you openly were hostile to most of the people here (and privately hostile to all the men) AND chose to hide your profile, then we'd be concerned you had something to hide.
Frankly, I don't see both conditions being met in your case  .
Oh, and also if you hid it the day AFTER someone pointed out you had 21 ignores in 15 days, and AFTER you had tried to belittle another guy for saying how men should be respectful towards women, then we'd really start to wonder. Re-read Daemona's posts on the main forums, interesting how things become clearer in time (and how I've got to learn to respect my instincts more) .
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