WaterSign
Members
562
Feb. 2003
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I dislike the fact that when you've been moderated (for example, I've had my ability to use voice taken away permanently) that there is no way to contest the decision or even defend yourself against accusations.
For example, they cite a log in which, in-world I called Daemona a bad name. The citation, as I'm told, listed the wrong person, a person to whom I did not even talk in the said event that this occurred. In fact, the log, as I have it, does not show any such a comment.
So I have been moderated with no standing proof. This is the sort of practice that I would like to see changed. Additionally, a permanent ban seems a tad extreme.
I have posted this message also on Dislikes on the official forums. The title is the same. I would appreciate you sounding off on the topic.
jonathan
parker
bedrava
(WaterSign)
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Ketae
Members
142
Sep. 2003
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If the citation lists the wrong person, it shouldn't hold any ground what-so-ever. If what I'm reading is coorect, and the itself lists the incorrect person, then it should be not be applicable as adverse evidence.
Granted, it is There's 'game', but it does seem a tad harsh to condemn one person permanently with incorrect logs. "Great liars are also great magicians"
"The victor will never be asked if he told the truth."
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BOINCer
Members
592
Aug. 2003
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| Quote (WaterSign @ Nov. 06 2003, 1:04 am) | | For example, they cite a log in which, in-world I called Daemona a bad name. The citation, as I'm told, listed the wrong person, a person to whom I did not even talk in the said event that this occurred. In fact, the log, as I have it, does not show any such a comment. |
The trouble with VC is that everyone in a room can hear the speaker. Consequently I do not like VC in a large gathering. When I have been in a gathering with you I can't/don't use VC because you would always be talking. So, you could have offended someone that was not in your conversation group and never known it. I am not singling you out for your use of VC as many do the same. I tend to stay away from most gathering where it is used a lot. BOINCer, but you may call me Bo
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Daemona
Members
994
Feb. 2003
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Posted on report bugs and problems to There Inc.:
Title: Punishing members on heresay & without due process.
Watersign recently has voice chat permanently banned. He was not notified to defend himself and I am HIGHLY skeptical that there was any evidence to support the charges made against him beyond the heresay of several avatars who were at a party he and i both attended.
I feel that his punishment is highly excessive in light of the facts that:
1. It is unlikely any actual proof exists to support the claims made against him (even though I do not think for a minute that he is being falsely accused.) this goes to burden of proof and heresay.
2. He had to go looking for answers as to why his voice chat no longer worked instead of being informed, warned, or asked to stop. This goes to due process.
3. The ban was permanent rather than for one week or one month. this goes to excessive sentancing.
Don't get me wrong, I totally support There enforcing their TOS. But I strongly feel; that there needs to be a set standard that must be met to take such permament action. There must be due process or at the least a step that is taken before a user is permanetly banned from voice chat.
In closing I think it is rather ironic that the person raising the call for fairness and justice in this issue is Watersigns target of derision. Yep I'm the one he sassed. But personal issues aside I feel this incident sets a dangerous precedent that i do not ever want to see repeated.
There MUST move to ensure this does not happen again. Otherwise what is to stop someone like me from emailing my entire club and making up some TOS violations and getting them all to complain on my behalf? Do you see the potential for abuse this raises?
Yes I know Watersign cursed me. I do feel he needed to be moderated. But not in the manner in which he was nor for the length of time. Sin like you mean it!
"I love the life but I never sold my soul" {Kid Rock}
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/mafioso/pics.html
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Daemona
Members
994
Feb. 2003
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And why did Snark bring the MAB into it?
posted in teh MAb forums:
Title: Just how much POWER does the MAB have?
I would like some answers regarding the recent permanent ban of voice chat for Watersign. I received an email telling me I should report him to the MAB for foul language used on voice chat to me at a party.
I did not do this because I did not think it was the MAB's responsibility to enforce the TOS. Apparently someone who got that email did complain and Watersign's voice chat has been permanently suspended.
What happened to burden of proof? Due Process? He claims he had to go looking for answers to find out WHY he had it shut off.
So if I email 10 to 15 people and ask them to complain to the MAB about someone can I get them banned too? I'd really like to know because I got to tell you that's an awful lot of power to be weilding with no current mandates or policies to guide us in using it.
This particular incident has several issues to it but I guess here in the MAB forums I would like to discuss the implications of a group of people providing heresay evidence to getone member punished in such a manner. I'll start another thread in the There forums to discuss the implications of burden of proof, heresay evidence, and due process.
Anyhow here is the email Snark sent out. Apprently XXXXX had emailed him and he had replied.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 XXXXX@there.com wrote:
> A number of people have suggested that I report WaterSign to There and >the MAB, after his behaviour during a party in Deathany's house a few nights ago.
Yes, report him. His behavior was firmly against the TOS (Behavior Guidelines), and should result in temporary or permanent suspension. His condition or imbalance may be a valid explanation, but it is NOT an excuse.
Snark.
I wonder why they were told to complain to the MAB. i thought they were not a governing body. This email was cc'ed to several people. Sin like you mean it!
"I love the life but I never sold my soul" {Kid Rock}
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/mafioso/pics.html
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Lynn Minmei
Members
384
Mar. 2003
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Don't be a butthole and you won't have to worry about being moderated "Life is only what we choose to make it, let's just take it, let us be free...
We can find the glory we all dream of... and with our love... we can win"
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Daemona
Members
994
Feb. 2003
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Lynn that is so not the point.
The point is if someone doesn't like you they can get 10 to 15 of their friends together, throw a big pity party about how you wronged them, fabricate some TOS violations you committed, and ask everyone to come to your aid and complain.
NO I am not saying this happened in this instance. But this incident sets the PRECEDENT. In this instance several people complained about him and There banned him from voice chat permanently based only on there accusations!
OMG am I the only one taking crazy pills here or does this make sense to anyone else?!
And this changes nothing about my personal feelings for Watersign. To me this is about so much more than that. Sin like you mean it!
"I love the life but I never sold my soul" {Kid Rock}
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/mafioso/pics.html
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eekabeep
Members
62
April 2003
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Yes, I think you're the only one taking crazy pills here. Time to switch to Midol!! 
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Lynn Minmei
Members
384
Mar. 2003
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But if a lot of people do not like YOU, maybe that says something about YOUR personality y'know? "Life is only what we choose to make it, let's just take it, let us be free...
We can find the glory we all dream of... and with our love... we can win"
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BOINCer
Members
592
Aug. 2003
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| Quote (The Somewhat Stressed but still Sexy Daemona @ Nov. 06 2003, 8:10 am) | ... In this instance several people complained about him and There banned him from voice chat permanently based only on there accusations!
OMG am I the only one taking crazy pills here or does this make sense to anyone else?! |
No, I understand what you are getting at. It would be very simple to do. And, if it did start happening I believe it would be a quick death of There once the word got around. There does need to but a form of due process. But, who recorded the VC session as proof. I thought you had to have a There person listen in to verify the problem before they would take action. At least that's what has been post here in the past. BOINCer, but you may call me Bo
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evankirk
Members
1375
April 2003
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I want to thank you guys very much. Until I read this post, I thought I was missing something not being able to use VC. Now, I realize all Ive been missing is even more drama.
Aaaah, the silence. There 4 All - Community Journal
http://there4all.thereinperson.com
"Old bagel hating, cranky southern old codger" - Lordpenquin
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Ketae
Members
142
Sep. 2003
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But it all really comes down to if ToS were actually violated. And for that, you'd basically need a recording, or the presence of a There employee to confirm it. Just saying you heard someone say something bad is hear-say, and hence, is not a credible form of evidence against a person. Just because you say someone was cussing, even if that person is widely scorned (AND even if they WERE cussing), should not be able to be used against someone without hard evidence.
Also, such a harsh punishment for hear-say is way off the mark. I suppose I'll liken it to a school's zero-tolerance policy where a student will get suspended for carrying tylenol.
Does the punishment fit the infraction? (If an infraction was truly commited) "Great liars are also great magicians"
"The victor will never be asked if he told the truth."
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Duchess
Members
645
Aug. 2003
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I get your point, Dae...
Depending on how TOS is handled, it could very well turn into a griefer tool. We've seen it happen with everything else...
I will NOT get into if I agree or disagree..
But, being in a position numerous times over the years to not only execute TOS mandates but to create new ones.. I do believe There needs to set an "official" outline of how violations are handled. For instance, in most places I have worked with, we would have something along a 3 Strike Outline..
Violation 1: Verbal Reminder of TOS and a Request to STOP Immediately
Violation 2: Formal Reminder of the first Violation with a Warning that the next time.. KONK.
Violation 3: BuhBye (sometimes for a period of 24 hours.. others forever.. depending on the severity of the issue)
Of course, this would need to be tweaked a bit to work in the There environment.. as we have so many issues... like buhbye to VC, buhbye to event hosting, buhbye to signs, buhbye to the entire service.. etc etc.
ANYWAYYYYYYYYYY.... I am NOT going to comment on what happened to start this. But, I agree, Dae... if something isn't set up, it could get ugly quickly. Especially now that it has been brought public so that the Griefer Inclined can jump on it and "use" it. *sigh* A naive girl can be infatuated with a knight,
but only a woman can love the man inside the armor.
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BamaBabydoll
Members
1697
June 2003
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Turn WS vc back on!
I have heard much worse than Watersigns language or attitude in There with nothing being done about it. Because he is outspoken and has a very strong opinion does not mean he should be condemned.
I am behind ya water, this system of reporting needs to be addressed and fixed.  All hail Queen Mackie!
Subliminal message: The Lair calls, come to Bama...
(passing popcorn  )
Basking in my ignorance, now I am blissfully unaware. It is the best way to lead a drama free life
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JARRETT
Members
241
Feb. 2003
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And you people have a problem with this?!?!
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Daemona
Members
994
Feb. 2003
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I don't think anyone shoudl have a part of the game cut off to them without due process and after a burden of proof has been met.
For me this has nothing to do with who it is just the fact that a bunch of ppl can get together and get him punished without proof is pretty scary. Sin like you mean it!
"I love the life but I never sold my soul" {Kid Rock}
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/mafioso/pics.html
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eekabeep
Members
62
April 2003
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| Quote |
Re: Just how much POWER does the MAB have? Reply
Daemona-
This had nothing to do with the MAB.
It was information gathered by CS. (customer service)
If you feel you need further clarification on this topic please email me, as it is not appropriate for me to comment on this further.
-Lee
Community Manager of There Inc.
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customer service investigated. it's procedure in all kinds of games. i'm surprised they even needed 10 people, all you need is 1 person upset from your actions and it's probable you'll get the same result. this is how the internet works sillies. it's just a game after all. 
dae, you are just looking silly trying to stir up drama. 
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eekabeep
Members
62
April 2003
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| Quote | Re: Punishing members on heresay & without due process.
(by Lyekka)
It's what *I* said that discounts the issue.
The issue was never taken forward any further than gathering a list of names of people who wanted to add their voice to the complaint. The email was NEVER sent. Therefore there was never any instance of a group of avatars "ganging up" on someone and There listening to them.
This is the point I'm trying to make everyone realise, because they all seem to be jumping on the wrong boat here. THIS NEVER HAPPENED.
Now I agree, it would be nice to know exactly how they DO enforce their TOS for such issues, but that's exactly why it was suggested to involve the MAB - to find out exactly what this information was. So on all other points raised about proof of breach by voice, and enforcement of TOS, I'm agreed. |
another nugget.
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Ariadne
Members
467
Feb. 2003
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If all it took was 1 person to report a member to get them permanently moderated, there is a danger that people are going to get punished just because someone had a grievance against them and thought they would see what reporting them to There for an imaginary offence would achieve. VERY dangerous..This reminds me of an episode I had with Yahoo - I upset someone on a Yahoo group once and within days I had an email from Yahoo saying I'd apparently violated their TOS and if I did it (what??) again I would have my account deactivated. Imagine how I'd have felt if they had just deactivated it on ONE person's word, since I hadn't even done anything to warrant it in the first place.
There should definitely have a "xx strikes and you are out" system. and WS should have had an email warning him of this. I think it sucks incredibly that he didn't know anything of it until he called for Help. "Cake or Death?" ~ Eddie Izzard
Come join my There yahoo group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThereMeetingPlace
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Daemona
Members
994
Feb. 2003
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Drama would be if i got all caught up in WS's behavior or the fact that Snark DID send the email out to garner support for this action. Like I said to WS I can't even guess what the other people who got the email did with it. I just saw it as ganging up. Did I go to the forums on Oct. 25 and complain abot it? NO because people are people and will do stupid stuff all the time. (Hey I do like 5 or 6 stupid things a day.)
No this is not about the drama that noone else can seem to get off of. This is about the policies or lack thereof. Can we PLEASE stick to that? I so do not care two snits what anyone did up to the point that There decided to punish someone with no evidence in a very permanent manner. For me this is about POLICY not DRAMA. Sin like you mean it!
"I love the life but I never sold my soul" {Kid Rock}
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/mafioso/pics.html
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Sugarme
Members
888
June 2003
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It does take one 1 person to get someone permanently moderated. But now I'm talking about if you had a convo with them not on vc but typing. You would have the chat IM and you just need to submit that to There and there you go. But now on vc its a different story. There is no way of telling what a person said or not said. Just needed to say that. hehe You swept me off my feet that very first night, and I haven't been the same since.
http://www.outwar.com/page.php?x=514583
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eekabeep
Members
62
April 2003
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HAHA keep going dae.
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Vanno
Members
475
July 2003
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personally, ive never had a problem with watersign that sucks you got banned and ill offer any help you need to get back in just tell me where to sign up http://vanno.thereinperson.com
If I was to suffer, let it continue. One day a blessing will come.
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erowid
Members
15
Nov. 2003
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if i hadnt seen/heard him say things that deserve such punishment i would be all over backing him. but, we all know he has said many things that warrent moderation on more than one occasion. We all know he has said nasty and uncalled for things to and about many avatars on many occasions and shows no sign of relenting. I agree, due process should be more fair and open, but in this case its pretty obvious he is a nasty & bitter little potty mouth. Heck, look at the signature he uses on his tu posts. I'm all for a fair and equitable treatment of offenders until proven guilty, but, he has been guilty of this same thing over and over again. If he cant keep his trap shut, i'm glad there inc is finally doing something about shutting him up. He has a mouth llike a sailor and a temper like a 4 year old. If i wasnt aware of the many times he has gone on personal rants littered with nasty words i shouldnt have to hear in an environment like this, i might think, hm, doesnt sound fair. but, thing is he IS guilty. He did say those things and many other even worse things. there is no debate about that. hell, i don't like some people in there, but have never resorted to using the words he does, heck, look at the transcript of a chat that he uses as his signature. yeah, oj simpson got his due process, but, it doesnt make him any less guilty. i will wait to jump on a bandwagon to defend someone when i think they arent guilty and really are being railroaded, but i have no doubt he got what he deserved. heck, and there have been plenty of witnesses to watersigns nasty little pottymouth. i'm not gonna lose any sleep over this one though.
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Duchess
Members
645
Aug. 2003
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Hmmmmm.. has anyone considered that perhaps a staff person of some kind was present under a personal name? A naive girl can be infatuated with a knight,
but only a woman can love the man inside the armor.
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Troz
Members
1270
July 2003
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Still, even if staff was there, I've heard TERRIBLE things that would make Watersign's little comment sound like child's play. This is all bull ****. What is There DOING???
WS, if you need any help at all just ask.
*sends an email out to the TU Posse* 
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Duchess
Members
645
Aug. 2003
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True, Troz.. I *think*.
I can't say for sure, since I am "avoiding" what actually happened. LOL
Ya know tho... we kinda knew there would be "changes" made as we exited Beta...
Perhaps enforcing stuff like this is one of them...? A naive girl can be infatuated with a knight,
but only a woman can love the man inside the armor.
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Daemona
Members
994
Feb. 2003
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I am all for There enforcing their TOS. I think this example only magnifies the need for a clear and concise set of steps that There will take to do so. We need to know the framework that we are operating within.
And eeka girl i am gonna spank your butt next time I see you in karuna! You know how I get stop egging me on or it's your butt I'm smacking! oooo I am gonna get you good too! Sin like you mean it!
"I love the life but I never sold my soul" {Kid Rock}
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/mafioso/pics.html
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BOINCer
Members
592
Aug. 2003
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| Quote (Troz @ Nov. 06 2003, 11:32 am) | Still, even if staff was there, I've heard TERRIBLE things that would make Watersign's little comment sound like child's play. This is all bull ****. What is There DOING???
WS, if you need any help at all just ask.
*sends an email out to the TU Posse* |
Troz is correct. I've heard a lot worse from others, even some wemons have out done him. 'wow
I don't stay around if I hear something I don't like. I go back to my little house and cuddle up with Helen! Much more fun! hehe
Duchess could be right. He may have been reported which caused a There employee to attend the party and get the goods on him. Still, he should have been warned.
I'm not sure this is something that the TU_Posse could help with, it seems more like We_The_People should get involved, or There version of the ACLU. BOINCer, but you may call me Bo
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BamaBabydoll
Members
1697
June 2003
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Nov. 06 2003, 12:47 pm |
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| Quote (BOINCer @ Nov. 06 2003, 11:45 am) | | I've heard a lot worse from others, even some wemons have out done him. 'wow |
HEY! Dont bring the wemons into this!
They are mute!
hehehehe All hail Queen Mackie!
Subliminal message: The Lair calls, come to Bama...
(passing popcorn )
Basking in my ignorance, now I am blissfully unaware. It is the best way to lead a drama free life
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